Indisputably is back for its second season! Listen to the first episode of How My Friends Negotiate, as host Andrea Schneider sits down with her longtime friend Indira Lakshmanan, an award-winning journalist and host of NPR’s Here & Now, for a wide-ranging conversation about the surprising connections between journalism and negotiation. Indira has spent decades asking tough questions of presidents, world leaders, celebrities, and newsmakers, and how she sees every interview as a negotiation. She also shares lessons from her career: why doing your homework matters, how asking one short question can be more powerful than asking three at once, and the painful lesson she learned in Afghanistan about recognizing when persistence has gone too far. And then there's the pirate story. While reporting in the Philippines, Indira negotiated a ride-along with a group of pirates—only to discover afterward that her translator had been quietly negotiating for her safety throughout the entire adventure. It's a conversation about preparation, curiosity, persistence, knowing when to push, knowing when to stop, and the negotiation lessons hiding in everyday life. Kukin Program for Conflict Resolution at Cardozo School of Law
On this episode of How My Friends Negotiate, host Andrea Schneider talks negotiation with her longtime friend Indira Lakshmanan, award-winning journalist and host of NPR’s Here & Now. Indira shares lessons from decades of interviewing world leaders and reporting from some of the world's most dangerous places: do your homework, ask the right question, build trust—and know when it's time to walk away.
Plus, she tells the story of the time she spent a day with pirates in the Philippines and discovered afterward that her translator had been negotiating for their safety the entire time.
Kukin Program for Conflict Resolution at Cardozo School of Law
Andrea Schneider (00:02.198)
Welcome to How My Friends Negotiate. I'm Andrea Schneider and I love talking about negotiation. As a law professor, I have spent 30 years working with young people as they navigate the start of their careers. I started this podcast to reflect on our negotiation experiences and to help us continue to grow into more effective advocates for ourselves and for others. Learning in school is one thing, but how do you actually negotiate your salary, deal with rent?
And manage all kinds of tricky situations. These are challenges throughout every stage of life. So I called up some of my friends and people I admire to join me for some lively conversations where they will share their insights, mistakes, and life lessons. This is going to be fun. And today's episode features my dear, dear friend Indira Lakshman, who is a host of Here and Now, NPR and WBUR's Midday National News Magazine.
Indy is a veteran foreign correspondent and political reporter with decades of experience covering global events and U.S. policy. During her more than 30 years of award-winning journalism experience, she is embedded with pirates in the Philippines, Maoist rebels in Nepal, and Khmer Rouge holdouts in Cambodia. Her reporting has exposed child labor in Bolivia, illegal logging in the Amazon, and helped end the incarceration of innocent children in Nepal.
She has interviewed world leaders and celebrities, hit the campaign trail, crisscrossed the road with US presidents and secretaries of state, and spent a dozen years based overseas. She's served in prominent editorial and host roles for many major media organizations, including Bloomberg News, the Boston Globe, National Geographic, and the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting. Most of Indy's negotiation these days.
involves interviewing people and getting them to answer hard questions, break news, and share personal and revealing stories. I am so excited to learn from Indy and thank you so much for being here today.
Indira Lakshmanan (02:04.896)
well I'm thrilled to be here, Andrea. And full disclosure, Andrea has been my best friend since we were in ninth grade in high school, and I've learned everything I know about negotiation from you, Andrea, from a very young age.
Andrea Schneider (02:16.59)
That's both thrilling and petrifying. So we're gonna have some fun digging into that. and Indy, you know, as we've been talking, like interviewing is so close to a negotiation skill. when we really think about how we negotiate, the idea of of gathering information, of getting people to open up, of building trust and and creating that relationship is
Indira Lakshmanan (02:21.707)
Yeah.
Andrea Schneider (02:45.088)
so similar between lawyers and journalists. And so I'm really excited to dive in and talk a little bit more about that. And so I wanted to hear first, you know, how do you think about conducting interviews, you know, in these kinds of negotiations every day for your job?
Indira Lakshmanan (03:03.18)
Right. Well, because we're a news magazine, we do everything from that day's breaking news headlines where we're trying to get whoever the newsmaker of the day is to tell us about the latest deal with Iran or what's happening in Ukraine or what's happening in Congress, all the way to interviewing, you know, a rap icon like Flavor Flav or, you know, an incredible best-selling author.
so I'm doing a wide variety of things. And I would say that every one of those interviews is a negotiation in its own right. And it's a negotiation on the one hand, you want to make your guests feel comfortable so that they open up and they're saying this to the whole world. You know, we have five million daily listeners, and of course, anybody can hear us on a podcast or anywhere in the world. So they're saying this to the whole world. So you need to make them feel comfortable to begin with.
Andrea Schneider (03:53.901)
Yeah.
Indira Lakshmanan (03:59.885)
And of course, people who are in the public eye, that's easier. They're used to it. They're more practice. Someone who might be a school teacher who just won an award. or a kid who's just made an incredible invention and won a prize for it. You know, those are the kinds of people who you have to talk through a little bit before the mic goes on and make them feel reassured. I'd say the number one thing I do is I do my homework every single time. So I make sure that I know.
10 times more about what I'm gonna have an opportunity to ask about because you never know what questions are gonna come up. You also never know if the person is gonna try to throw a curveball and give you some wrong information. And you need to be ready and say, Well, actually, I read this study that said blah, blah, blah, or I've got the statute right in front of me. And article two says da-da-da-da-da. So you have to be able to have the comeback and know. So one of the things I do is that
You know, while I want to be surprised in every interview I do, and it's delightful when you ask a question and you get an answer you weren't expecting. That can be great. in an ideal world, I also want to ask questions to which I probably know what the answer is gonna be because I've fully researched this person, I've researched the issue, I've listened to other interviews they've done, I've read articles they've written, etc. So, you know, I think number one, just table stakes is you have to show up.
At the party, having done all your homework. And this applies not only to doing interviews, I would say it applies to, you know, finding an apartment to rent, which I recently had to do as as an adult, and it wasn't easy because of moving to a new city. And it meant, you know, absorbing a huge amount of information from Redfin and Zillow and everything and really researching the market and figuring out what
Andrea Schneider (05:37.614)
Yeah.
Indira Lakshmanan (05:51.577)
things cost and what was good. And as soon as I found something, I was like the very first person to see the thing I ultimately took and was just immediately like, I'm ready to sign this now. I want this now. And she wasn't even sure that the people were going to move out yet. And I was like, okay, keep me posted, calling her every day, making sure. And within three days, I had the place signed and sealed, you know, the lease, because I just made it clear that I knew I wanted this.
Andrea Schneider (06:05.934)
Yeah.
Andrea Schneider (06:17.998)
So I love that because, you know, one of the things I really talk about in class is that, you know, these are life skills that are transferable in all sorts of contexts, right? So that idea of do your homework, be fully prepared. you know, it's like be the smartest kid in the room, right? It doesn't mean you've just done as much work as you can. And I I want to pull two things. One is how it's transferable, right? So that it's helpful when we're looking for the next apartment.
when we're looking for another job, right? All of that. Do your homework. There's a lot of information out there and and have as much as you possibly can in advance. and I also love the fact that you look forward to a surprise. I think sometimes in negotiation we assume that if we've done all our work, that there's we we do the work in order to not be surprised. and that's actually basically impossible.
Somebody will always be a better expert on themselves. They will know things, they will have facts, they will have interests, they'll have emotions that there's no way we could have prepared for. So I love this recognition of look forward for the surprise, right? You've done your homework. That doesn't mean that a surprise is a bad thing. That means that you can take that in stride and sort of say, like, that's fun. What can I do with that?
Indira Lakshmanan (07:40.751)
Right.
Andrea Schneider (07:43.025)
so I I love both pieces of that. That's really that's that's a great way of thinking about it.
Indira Lakshmanan (07:48.515)
Yeah, and hopefully it is a bonus. Hopefully it's a good surprise. If there is a bad surprise, I hate to say this, but it means maybe you didn't do all your homework. And again, this is something where it's very important. Ha holding public officials accountable is a huge thing that we as journalists do every day. And I had the great good fortune to you know, cover a couple of presidential campaigns, travel on the campaign trail with
Andrea Schneider (07:56.728)
Right.
Indira Lakshmanan (08:15.683)
Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, Mitt Romney, and then to spend, you know, eight years on the State Department beat traveling with Hillary Clinton and John Kerry. And so over the course of that time, I interviewed Hillary Clinton for Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg TV a total of about 20 times. And every time I had to be on my game. It was every single day I'm doing the research.
I'm thinking about what is she gonna answer? I'm asking the most detailed question I can. Sometimes, funnily enough, I noticed and I admire you know, a lot of my colleagues in this field. And Margaret Brennan, who people may know as a host of Face the Nation, was on the State Department beat with me for a while. And she was so brilliant at her job because many of us would
Think about the most complex question that had like three parts. And another thing, Secretary Carey. And what about this? And what about this? Because we're trying to get every question and idea we have out in one breath. And it makes it very easy for people to, if you ask them a three-prong question, they're only going to answer one prong and they're only going to answer the prong they want to answer. And you're left, you know, well, that didn't quite work out the way I wanted. And something that Margaret Brennan is brilliant at is she would ask one short, sharp question.
Andrea Schneider (09:22.559)
Well.
Indira Lakshmanan (09:34.349)
And she would almost always break news for the rest of us because she would force Secretary Carey to grapple with a very short question that there was no way around it. He couldn't interpret it another way. He had to answer it. So that's, you know, something that I've learned from people who I've worked alongside and people who I admire. And I think the research, it also applies. I'm thinking about the young people who you have the great privilege to teach. And I'm thinking about my own kids. And
You know, one another place where this research really helps is when you're looking for a job or you're switching jobs and in the salary negotiations, you need to know what other people are making. And, you know, part of this comes from being a very friendly, approachable, open person. And with many of my friends, I've just been very open with friends in my profession and said, I'm gonna put it on the table. This is how much I make. Will you please tell me how much you make?
And this is obviously with people who I'm close to, who I trust. I wouldn't do that with anybody who's not a very, very close friend. but they have told me, and it has helped me, and it has helped me guide my own negotiations. And one of my most useful negotiating friends ever was my dear friend Mike Grunwald, who's a terrific investigative journalist and author. And years and years ago, when I was, you know, changing from one job to another.
He said, Well, I'm just gonna tell you, Indira, what I've been offered by blank job that he had just started. And I was like, What? And he said, You need to be making the same thing. And it was hugely more than I was making. And so in my negotiation that I was about to go into, I just asked for the same thing that Mike asked for and guess, or that Mike had gotten. And guess what? I got it. You know? And that was a really important lesson to me that none of my female friends or I.
Andrea Schneider (11:24.697)
Course.
Indira Lakshmanan (11:30.019)
were making as much as he was. And it was just because we hadn't asked. And so this was one where I just, you know, asked for the same salary and I got it. Bing, bang, boom.
Andrea Schneider (11:41.328)
I mean, I love it. And we're sort of jumping to one of the stories that has stuck with you because I do want to sort of take a step back. I mean, there are a couple of different skills that I want to pull, right? One is this research and knowing and being willing to, you know, I think for many of us, it's sort of awkward to ask other people, like, how much do you make? And at the same time, get over it. Like, go do the research that you need to. So you know you're being paid fairly. I think another thing is.
Indira Lakshmanan (12:04.686)
Right.
Andrea Schneider (12:10.627)
how to ask those questions. And again, to tie that back to recognizing that sometimes in communication, negotiations, all sorts of things, it is the short, what appears to be a simple question rather than these sort of three-part complicated, like you'll get there if you have enough time to have the conversation, but start with the simple things, right? That's also sort of checking that you're both on the same page. It's checking information, right? All of those things.
Indira Lakshmanan (12:37.327)
Right.
Andrea Schneider (12:39.747)
So I just want to take a a step back. I mean, the the story that you've just said about Mike is a really good one in terms of informing you, you know, of of sort of providing that lesson over the course of your career, right? Do your homework, find out the standards, you know, make sure you know what's going on. Is there a particular and I'm stepping back onto the sort of interviewing side of things? Was there an interview that you did sort of early in your career that also
you know, sort of stays with you as an example of like, I really got them to open up in ways I didn't expect because, you know, I did such a nice job. I I showed up, you know, I did the preparation. I asked good questions, whatever it is.
Indira Lakshmanan (13:24.559)
All right, well, I don't know that there's one in particular because the funny thing about being a journalist and particularly being a public radio host is you're doing half a dozen interviews a day, if not more. So I can't even remember all the interviews I've done. But I will say I did one this year, which was a great pleasure. And I got to interview an author who I'm a huge fan of, and that's Sir Philip Pullman, who is the author of of
Andrea Schneider (13:34.297)
Right. Fair. Fair point.
Indira Lakshmanan (13:52.473)
Brilliant fantasy series that people will be familiar with: The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, The Amber Spyglass, the altogether it's called his dark materials. I think he's a modern-day C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien. He's just brilliant. And it was such a pleasure for me to interview him. And because I've read all of his books and I've thought so deeply, I read them with my my younger son, and we just loved them together and thought so deeply about.
them and thought about the metaphysics of what he's talking about. Parallel universes, you know, just various options. Are there alternate realities of ourselves? Can we go between worlds? Does does, you know, space have consciousness? Is it not just humans? Does dust have consciousness? All these fascinating topics. I'm very into metaphysics.
And what was so wonderful in interviewing him is I was interviewing him about having finished out the second trilogy in this series, and he's done. He's done with that character Lyra. But I had, because I had read his books so deeply and thought about them so deeply, I was able to ask him some questions. And this is based on I listened to every video and audio interview I could find about him. I asked him questions that other people hadn't asked him. And what was a real pleasure to me.
Was he responded a couple of times with like, huh? That's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way, or I'll have to think about that again. And at one point he actually said to me, You know what? I don't think I've fully examined that. Maybe I do have to write another book. And I said, Aha, if you write that extra book, I'm gonna take credit for it. He's like, you know, Indira, I haven't answered that question. You're right. So sometimes it's going deep and making the other person think.
Andrea Schneider (15:28.142)
Yeah.
Andrea Schneider (15:39.007)
That's good.
Indira Lakshmanan (15:44.599)
And that can be a real pleasure and a real reward as well. But I think the baseline to everything is making your guest feel comfortable enough that they can tell you what you need to know. Whether that's a personal story, whether it's a revelation that they haven't shared with another interviewer, or whether it's giving you the facts, whether it's, you know, holding their feet to the fire.
Indira Lakshmanan (16:10.711)
about something that's important to the American people that has not yet been revealed by the government. And because you know your facts so well, you are basically essentially holding them accountable and then they have to answer it, or if they don't answer it, everybody listening knows that they've evaded the question. that is, you know, the sort of satisfying bit. That's the goal.
Andrea Schneider (16:32.473)
So, conversely, is there, I know for many of us, it's not just the successes that sit with us, it's the mistakes. and I'm wondering if there's a, you know, an interviewer negotiation mistake or one that got away that sort of, you know, that also sort of informed you as you were developing your career to kind of, okay, remember, let's not do that again.
Indira Lakshmanan (16:40.451)
Sure.
Okay, all right, sure. Well, you're gonna take me then to the hardest, you know, most painful memory, and I will admit to this, but it is very painful. you know me well, so you know I'm a squeaky wheel. And being a squeaky wheel has generally worked for me throughout my life. It's I ask, I ask again. If the answer is no, I a I ask it a different way. I do this both in my interviewing and in my negotiations. I try to always be nice about it. I think that you know, you catch more.
Bees with honey. And so, you know, you want to be nice, you want to be likable, you want to respect and show your respect to the other person. And use it being a squeaky wheel has generally worked for me. However, there was one situation, and this was in Afghanistan, after the fall of the Taliban, in 2001. So this would have been I was working for the Boston Globe at the time, I was the Boston Globe's Asia Bureau chief, and I spent
That next from the time of the fall of the Taliban till the beginning of the Iraq War, I spent about a year and a half in and out of Afghanistan. And I was with my very trusted translator, my very trusted driver. And in these situations, in war zones, you really rely on the people who are your eyes and ears, the local people. journalists simply could not do their work in foreign countries without a reliable, smart.
trusted, trustworthy translator and driver. And these people basically become family members for you. You go to their families' houses and you consider them part of your family. And I had a wonderful translator who was a very educated guy who was actually trained as a doctor but was making more money as a translator in the post-Taliban experience. And we were driving along the road and we came across a training camp for US special forces
And their Afghan, basically former warlords who were now working for the US government as kind of like what do you call it? Militiamen. Let's let's say militiamen working with US special forces. So these could have been CIA, these could have been, you know, I don't know, Delta Force, I don't know who they were, but they were US special forces. It was obvious. We pull over at the side of the road.
Indira Lakshmanan (19:18.871)
And we approached them on foot. Now, I was, you know, waving my arms, very friendly, making it clear we come in peace. The Americans were coming nowhere near us. They were way back. They were two hundred yards past a barricade at which there were armed militiamen. And I came to the front
spoke, you know, tell told my translator, please say that we want to speak to the Americans. I'm an American journalist. I'm from the Boston Globe. We want to talk to them. What are they doing? How's it going? How's the search for Osama bin Laden going? Blah blah blah. So he's telling this to them and they're basically telling us, go away. Nobody wants to talk to you. Go away. This is a secret location. Go away. And I keep trying harder and harder. but please I'm here. I'm the Boston Globe. You know, nothing to fear. I'm a journalist. Here's my press pass.
Andrea Schneider (19:59.48)
Yeah.
Indira Lakshmanan (20:08.207)
Please just go tell them I'm waving to the American guys who've grown long beards and are wearing local clothes and are 250 yards away. I'm waving to them and they're not waving back. They've all got their sunglasses on. They are not waving back. But I'm still thinking, I'm still thinking, I'm just gonna talk my way into this. And I keep talking, my translator keeps talking to them. And then at one moment it just turns. And the circle of these militiamen crowd around us and they start beating my translator.
Andrea Schneider (20:20.687)
They are not immune.
Indira Lakshmanan (20:38.561)
They don't touch me, I guess, because I'm a woman, but they start beating and beating my translator. So I immediately, because they're basically saying, get the heck out of here. And I immediately say, I try to throw my body in between them. And I'm like, stop, stop, okay, we'll go away. You know, they don't speak English. I don't speak Dari or Pashtu. I'm saying, okay, okay, okay, okay, we'll go away. And we left with our tail between our legs. The driver came running to rescue us. It was a terrible experience.
We reported it to Central Command. We got no justice. My translator might have had internal bleeding. Who knows? Fortunately, he didn't have to be hospitalized. Fortunately, he was okay. But it could have gone very, very, very I mean, it went badly enough. It could have gone even worse. And that was a lesson to me. You need to know when to stop in a negotiation. You need to know when nobody's listening, you're not going to get your way.
Andrea Schneider (21:33.82)
Yeah. Turn around a while.
Indira Lakshmanan (21:35.809)
And just turn around and walk away. And because my job as a journalist involves negotiations every single day and every single conversation I have, I've had a lot of success in those conversations. And sometimes you don't know when it's time to just cut bait and leave. And that was a painful way to learn that lesson.
Andrea Schneider (21:56.494)
Yeah, very interesting. So last thing before we get into some games. what do you, you know, if somebody sort of earlier in their career is listening to this, what's a way that you what what's a skill that you think young people should have going into a negotiation? I'm gonna Buffy, I'm gonna re ask that question because it took me way too long to get that out. okay. So,
Indy, one last thing before we get into some games. I just was thinking, you know, we both you know, in a classroom with our kids, you know, thinking about skills. You know, what do you wish you knew as a young person about negotiation or interviewing and and communication?
Indira Lakshmanan (22:44.291)
Well, let me answer the question this way, which is what are some of some skills that I want to impart to this generation? Because we are in a different time now in the 2020s than we were when you and I were coming into our careers. We are like classic Gen Xers and the Gen Zers and Gen Alphas who are coming up now have a very different experience because of technology and because the world has changed so much. And one thing that I think is really important is
skills in face-to-face communication and skills in telephone communication. And these are things that I think this generation sadly has been robbed of. And I have pandemic kids. You know, my older son was in eighth grade when the pandemic started. My younger one was in third grade. And it's d very devastating because it hurt their social skills, all the kids of that generation. They're not very good at talking on the phone because texting is king.
there n and I think a lot of older Gen Z and younger millennials aren't very good at in person because they have had to work remote or have chosen to work remote. And I think honestly that's a mistake. I know that remote work can be convenient and a partial or hybrid, you know, schedule is certainly great and I don't knock that, but I also think there's something that you get from being in person, being in the office, reading people's cues.
Seeing how the boss does things, being able to just get that coffee with the boss or and your colleagues, forming alliances and relationships. There's just so much that richness that comes from in-person communication. at the very least, do video calls, but just in-person brings so much more and learn how to make phone calls. I mean, I've watched young people try to make a phone call and absolutely freeze.
you know, not know how to do it, not know how to leave a voicemail and freak out. You know, and I think that, you know, yes, it's important to know how to text and how to email, but it's really important to know how to have a conversation. So that's the advice I would give to this generation, which I think our generation had to learn because we didn't have the texting as an option.
Andrea Schneider (25:00.559)
All right, so this is gonna play right into our first round of our games. the first game is called Would You Rather? And we're gonna talk about the who and the how of negotiation. and we'll come back to exactly some of the elements that you've discussed. So to start us off though, would you rather negotiate with your kid or with a parent?
Indira Lakshmanan (25:22.889)
well, always with my kid because part of it is well, I'm fortunate. I have really joyous, positive relationships with both of my sons, but it's also it's a teaching experience for them. It's modeling for them the behavior and the standards that I have and what I want them to have. And I get to learn about them through that negotiation. I love my parents too. Unfortunately, both of my parents have passed away. But it was tough negotiating with parents, I think it's harder.
Andrea Schneider (25:43.714)
I love that. Yeah, no. Right. Okay. would you rather e negotiate over email or over text? I know neither are your preference.
Indira Lakshmanan (25:57.571)
Well, neither would be my preference. In person would be my preference for sure. but or in person, number one choice on the video call, second choice. But if it's a third choice, then probably email, because you have more time to lay things out and the person has more time to read it and think about it. And I know there are some people who prefer to read and think. They don't want to have to react in real time. So part of that is also understanding who's on the other side of the negotiation.
and having respect for the way they think and what's comfortable for them.
Andrea Schneider (26:31.951)
Okay. would you rather negotiate on your home turf or away turf?
Indira Lakshmanan (26:36.973)
Whatever's gonna make the other person feel comfortable. I'm always happy to have someone on my home turf, but if they but I will say I once had a boss who needed to have a difficult conversation with me. And I thought it was very curious because she insisted on coming to my home. And I thought that was really interesting because I had been to her home many times. We could have done it in the office, but she chose to come to my house, and that meant that I had to prepare a big spread.
food for her, which she was not wanting or asking for. But I think it was because she knew she had to tell me some tough stuff. And I think she wanted to do it on my home turf where I would feel comfortable.
Andrea Schneider (27:05.422)
Ha ha.
Andrea Schneider (27:19.535)
Okay. Last one, would you rather negotiate over coffee or over drinks?
Indira Lakshmanan (27:23.321)
Definitely over drinks. Definitely. It's more relaxed. It makes it less of a sort of in the office business thing and more of a, you know, hopefully you have trust and friendship with this person, which is an ideal scenario.
Andrea Schneider (27:25.134)
Okay.
Andrea Schneider (27:37.999)
Okay, so now we're gonna switch. Our second game is a classic debriefing tool called Best, Worst, and Wildest. I'm just gonna give you three rapid fire prompts. You've 30 seconds to respond. Nothing, just whatever's off the top of your head here. So best negotiation advice you've ever heard.
Indira Lakshmanan (27:55.757)
ask for more because hopefully they'll say yes. And be creative.
Andrea Schneider (27:59.684)
Okay. Great. worst negotiation tactic you've ever seen.
Indira Lakshmanan (28:04.835)
Hm, getting angry or shutting down.
Andrea Schneider (28:08.399)
All right. And the wildest thing you've ever done in a negotiation.
Indira Lakshmanan (28:12.877)
In a negotiation. Let's see. in a negotiation, what's the wildest thing I've ever done? Well, in an interview, I've done a lot of wild things. I've eaten live scorpions for a story about an insect restaurant in China. So I've done a lot of things. I don't necessarily recommend them to other people. But in terms of in a negotiation situation, what are the wildest things I've done?
Andrea Schneider (28:20.76)
Or in an interview.
Andrea Schneider (28:35.319)
Ha.
Indira Lakshmanan (28:41.301)
I don't know that I can say I've ever been wild in a negotiation, but I try to be very open and warm. I mean, I'm thinking about negotiations over jobs and salaries because journalism is such Yeah.
Andrea Schneider (28:53.295)
I'm gonna pause us and let's go back and just do wildest thing in an interview. Buffy, I'm gonna do a retake on this last one.
Indira Lakshmanan (28:59.087)
Okay, but wait, hold up. What are you wanting to ask me now?
Andrea Schneider (29:01.731)
I'm gonna say the wildest thing you've ever done to secure an interview and I wanna hear the scorpion story.
Indira Lakshmanan (29:05.007)
Just your interview. Okay, but I don't even know. I have to th like I don't know that I have to do
Andrea Schneider (29:09.485)
Well, like you just told me about eating scorpions. Like what the actual
Indira Lakshmanan (29:12.889)
Okay. I didn't do that to get an interview. That was just in the course of a story. Okay.
Andrea Schneider (29:16.641)
Okay. That's then that's what I'll do. Okay. All right. Cause that's just that's just fun. I can see that being the social media clip, which is why I'm saying this to Buffy. Cause she's gonna be like eating scorpions. Is that actually part of your negotiation strategy or you know, whatever? But it's like a good is that all right, in? Can we do that?
Indira Lakshmanan (29:24.651)
Yeah.
Indira Lakshmanan (29:36.495)
Sure. I can also yeah, I can also you know, yeah, I can give you a couple examples and you can use what you like.
Andrea Schneider (29:43.107)
Perfect. All right. Last question. What is the wildest thing you've ever done in the course of, you know, getting a story, securing an interview, one way or another?
Indira Lakshmanan (29:54.649)
Wow, okay. Well, I am lucky to say I have done a lot of wild things for stories. one I can think of was the one where I got to do a ride along with pirates in the Philippines. And that was crazy. This was during the time in the late 1990s when there was a huge increase in high seas piracy in Asia. So I negotiated with the Philippine Navy SEALs who've been trained by US Navy SEALs to do a ride along with them, spend a whole, you know, night
On one of their ships looking for pirates. And separately, I spent an entire day out at sea with a group of pirates on their three small boats. And what was interesting about this was we had to do a huge negotiation ahead of time, again, with a translator who was local, who was amazing, who knew somebody who knew somebody in the village who, you know, the guy was a pirate, blah, blah, blah. He had negotiated in advance. I'm gonna be bringing you a
you know, international reporter and photographer, and I need you to guarantee their safety. I need you to guarantee that you're not gonna kidnap them because this was at the time of Abu Sayaf, when in the Philippines they had taken some 20 European and Americans hostage at a resort in the same exact area. So you need to guarantee their safety. We got those assurances. We went on the boat, we spent 10, 12 hours with them on the boat, huge interviews, lots of photos.
We come back, we drive back hours to get back to the nearest city. We're having a drink that night. Let's say we're having mojitos at the bar. And then the translator finally lets out his breath and says, my God, we almost got kidnapped. And I said, What? Fortunately, I hadn't understood what was going on. But he said that while we were on the boat, that some of the pirates were saying, Come on.
We've got an American reporter, we've got a French photographer, we could get millions of dollars for them. Muammar Qaddafi just paid a million bucks each for the release of these European hostages as a sign of goodwill. We should kidnap them. And this whole negotiation is going on in the boat. And my translator was saying very calmly, we never knew anything was wrong. He was saying, You no, you can't do that because your gang leader here gave his word. He's a man of honor. He's a man of his word. He gave his word that no harm would come to them.
Indira Lakshmanan (32:12.119)
And the guy apparently nodded his head and said, that is absolutely right. I did give my word. And my wife knows his cousins, brothers, uncle. You know, I did give my word. And so this whole negotiation took place that I was completely unaware of. But it was because we had said ahead of time, we need it to be someone who was known to somebody and we need these assurances. So that's one example.
Andrea Schneider (32:31.919)
This okay, that's that's going to that is absolutely wild. I have visions of Tom Hanks, you know, in Captain Phillips here. you know, I'm I'm very glad that we didn't have to figure out who was going to play you in the you know, pirate movie. That sounds God forbid. anyway, Indy, this was terrific. Thank you so much for all of this. I am focusing on, I think, you know, thinking about preparation,
Indira Lakshmanan (32:36.503)
Yeah.
Andrea Schneider (32:59.651)
both before interviewing and negotiation to really think about what we can do in advance to help us really be able to sit down and and really own the room in some ways, as well as just asking good questions and being open and and recognizing that surprise is really, you know, a wonderful thing when it happens, both in interviewing and in negotiation. You're gathering new information and that can be really helpful.
and then of course helping people feel comfortable and building that trust, which I'm just gonna say, thank God. you know, your translator and the head there, the cousin of the cousin of the cousin had had enough trust with each other so that we are here talking, as opposed to watching you being portrayed in some horrifying pi pirate movie. So thank you so much for coming.
Indira Lakshmanan (33:46.471)
God forbid, God forbid. Yes.
Well, it's been an absolute treat and thank you for this podcast. It's a wonderful service, and I've enjoyed listening to the other episodes. So thank you so much.
Andrea Schneider (33:58.992)
Thanks, Indy.
Indira Lakshmanan (34:01.167)
All right.