On this episode of How My Friends Negotiate, host Andrea Schneider talks with musician, author, and race reconciliator Daryl Davis, whose remarkable negotiation work has brought him into conversations with Ku Klux Klan members and leaders. Daryl shares the story of lending his bus to a group of Klansmen, explains how one conversation helped change a Klan leader's beliefs, and reveals why he approaches conflict through curiosity rather than anger, “we” rather than “you,” and “controlled dissonance” rather than forced harmony. Plus: the best negotiation advice he's ever received? “Stop talking and listen.”
Andrea Schneider sits down with her friend Daryl Davis, award-winning musician, author, lecturer, and race reconciliator, whose extraordinary approach to negotiation has led him to conversations with Ku Klux Klan members and leaders. Daryl doesn't approach these encounters by trying to win an argument. Instead, he gets curious, builds credibility, listens, and looks for the human being on the other side.
Daryl shares the story of the Klan leader whose racist beliefs were challenged by one deceptively simple conversation.
Drawing on his life as a musician and the child of diplomats, Daryl talks about “harmony” and “controlled dissonance,” why replacing “you” and “I” with “we” and “us” can change a negotiation, and why credibility may be your most valuable asset at the table.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Welcome to How My Friends Negotiate. I'm Andrea Schneider, and I love talking about negotiation. As a law professor, I have spent 30 years working with young people as they navigate the start of their careers. I started this podcast to reflect on our negotiation experiences and to help us continue to grow into more effective advocates for ourselves and for others. Learning in school is one thing, but how do you actually negotiate your salary, deal with rent, and manage all kinds of tricky situations?
These are challenges throughout every stage of life. So, I called up some of my friends and people I admire to join me for some lively conversations while they will share their insights, mistakes, and lessons. This is going to be fun.
Today's episode features award-winning musician, lecturer, actor, author, and race reconciliator Daryl Davis, who holds a bachelor of music degree in jazz and two honorary doctorate degrees in humane letters and fine arts. Apart from leading the Daryl Davis band, he has worked extensively with Chuck Berry, the legendary Blues Band, Elvis Presley's Jordanaires, and many others. After one of Daryl's performances, a man told him it was the first time he'd seen a black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. And after Darryl explained the black origin of Lewis's piano style, the man became a fan. Turns out, he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. This led to Daryl becoming the first black author to interview KKK leaders and members detail, and his highly acclaimed books Klan-destined Relationships and the brand new The Klan Whisperer. Davis has received numerous awards for his work in racial reconciliation and is often sought by CNN, MSNBC, NPR, and other media outlets for his expertise on race relations and white supremacy. Most of Daryl's current negotiations involve race reconciliation, and Daryl, we are so grateful that you are here today. This is just a wonderful opportunity. So, thank you so much.
Daryl Davis
Andrea. Thank you for inviting me. It's a real pleasure to be here with you.
Professor Andrea Schneider
We have talked before about this, and I'm just very excited to have the opportunity to have this back and forth and learn more about what you do and how you got into this, and the lessons that you've learned over time. So, can you start off by telling us about a negotiation that you've handled in the past year?
Daryl Davis
Let's go back to the very beginning, to my childhood. My parents were in the U.S. Foreign Service. You know, they're gone now, but State Department. So, I grew up as an American embassy kid, traveling all over the world, starting at the age of three. And you get assigned to a country for two years, and come back home here to the states, and you go to another country two years, back and forth, back and forth. So, I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries. I had to make friends fast, and it was a phenomenon to me when I came back here, and my dad wanted to stay because he wanted me to do all of high school in the same place. And it was a phenomenon to me that my classmates had known each other since kindergarten. I never knew anybody for more than two years, so I was the new kid on the block. This was junior high, actually, and I was age 13, and I had just come back to the states, and here are all these people who knew each other since day one, and the two most popular people in my school were running for class president: a girl named Debbie and a guy named Aldi, and we had cliques. I was not familiar with cliques overseas, but back home here in the states, we had cliques, you know, the jocks, the nerds, the you know whatever else, and I didn't know that you had to join a clique and you know remain loyal to the clique, even though you know people in the other clique, you're loyal to your clique. So, I clicked with everybody because that's how it was overseas. So as a result of my knowing everybody and getting along with everybody, each candidate running for president asked me if I would run as their vice president on their ticket. Figuring, well, you know, Darrell knows those people over there in that clique; they'll vote for him, so I'll get the vote. Right? It was a good strategy, very good strategy. Now, I liked both of these candidates. I liked them very much. They each were in different cliques. I wasn't in any clique, but I made friends with all the cliques. So I knew if I chose one over the other, somebody would the other would get hurt, and I didn't want to hurt anybody. So now I have to figure out: Well, do I negotiate what's the best deal for the one I like the most, or should I negotiate what's best for me? That was the the dilemma, and I went home and thought about it. Who do I choose? Who do I choose? Well, why are there only two choices? Why is there only Debbie and Alby? Thought well, there has to be an alternative, and let me negotiate an alternative. So I figured, well, if each of them think that highly of me to invite me as their vice president, why don't I go ahead and run against the two of them as president? I did, I did, and I won, and I was the new kid on the block. Everybody knew each other from kindergarten. They didn't know me except for a couple months, but because I had made friends in all the cliques, I had negotiated friendships. I negotiated win-win-win-win-win situations. I became the student body president. So I didn't really think of it in terms of negotiation back then, but it was just how I was around all that kind of thing with my parents. My parents' job, or my dad's job, was to foster better relations between a foreign government and our own U.S. government. So I was always around that. I wasn't taking notes, but I was absorbing it. What is best for everybody? Well, maybe me being president might be best for everybody, and that way nobody would be hurt, right?
Professor Andrea Schneider
Well, I mean, the really interesting thing is that you've put yourself right in the middle of things because, in some ways, right as I think about it, and good lord to maneuver this in junior high in the middle of clique land at age 13, this is the height of sort of social pressure, right? It all gets easier when you survive middle school, but the idea that you're the neutral because you were friends with everybody. That you could be in the middle. That you had these connections to everybody is really this sort of remarkable space that you realized you could occupy, and I imagine that stayed with you of better than being on one side or the other and being seen as the fighter for one, I'm comfortable in this middle space.
Daryl Davis
Absolutely, and that's a good segue into the race reconciliation work that I do today. Now, professionally, I'm a musician, and I went to college. I majored in music. Music is my profession, but improving race relations has become my obsession Let me tell you, you know, as a as a band leader, my job on stage is to foster harmony between all the voices on my stage, whether they are the instrumental voices, piano, bass, drums, guitars, saxophone, what have you, or the vocal voices. I want harmony. The only time you want dissonance is when you intentionally inject it into the music for effect. So, you want controlled dissonance if you wanted it all, because if dissonance happens randomly, it's because somebody hit a bad note or went out of tune or what have you, and that's not music. That's noise. Okay, so you don't want noise unless you intentionally put it in there, so naturally I'm working to foster harmony on my stage and my performances unless I put in controlled distance, so naturally when the gig is over, and the curtain comes down, and I step off the stage into society, I want harmony around me. I don't want dissonance around me, but there is so much polarization, division, whether it's over religion, whether it's over sexual gender, whether it's over the color of somebody's skin, or who voted for who in whatever presidential election-I don't want that dissonance. It's noise. So, being the way I am, where I saw two people going against each other in junior high school, or I made friends every two years in different countries, or I'm on a bandstand creating harmony. That's what I want. That's my negotiation.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Has your approach, do you think, changed over time? It's really interesting to me how you have these two really key influences in sort of how you operate today. One is the child of diplomats and moving every two years, and it's a great story that you've just shared with us. And then the other is this professional background of really thinking about bringing voices together and this harmony versus dissonance. And I love that idea of like, controlled dissonance. I want to circle back to that maybe as a negotiation strategy at some point, but you have these really interesting influences, and so has your style in negotiation sort of changed over time?
Daryl Davis
It's modified because I'm always learning. I'm always learning different things about people, and in my 68 years that I've been on this earth, I have performed in all 50 states. I have been either on vacation or living in or performing or speaking in 65 countries on six continents. I've come across a wide variety of people, people who may not look like me or speak my language, or worship as I do. Perhaps don't worship at all. But I've always concluded that no matter how far I've gone from our country, whether it's right next door to Canada, or right next door to Mexico, or across the Atlanta, across the Pacific, every single person I have met is a human being, and as such, every human being on this planet wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved. Everyone wants to be respected. We all want to be heard. We all want to be treated fairly and truthfully. And we all want the same things for our family as anybody else would want for their family. And if we can keep that in the forefront of our mind when we are in an adversarial situation or a negotiation, perhaps, or in a society or a culture in which we are uncomfortable or unfamiliar, or there's some contention, I'll guarantee you that your negotiation or your navigation of that situation, that culture, that society, will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive. We always talk about us versus them, the us versus them mentality. We need to stop that. Well, we don't talk about the singular of that. The singular of us and them is me, I, and you. So we need to stop using those words when we are negotiating with somebody, whether it's a race relations thing or whether it's about opinions on abortion or nuclear weapons or the wars going on in Iran, Gaza, Israel, Russia, Ukraine, etc. So if I were to say to you, say we're talking about whatever, and I said, "Well, Andrea, you know you're looking at it like this. I look at it like this.” Well, that's us and them, just in singular. So what I should do is bring you over, or join you. So let's replace me, I, and you with the words we and us. Okay? So I would say, Andrea, well, can we look at it like this for a second, or let us look at it this way for a moment? So us, I'm working with you, and psychologically, that disrupts their separation from you because you're including them. I'm saying we, us, and that helps the negotiation go smoother.
Professor Andrea Schneider
This is such a terrific specific language cue that I think is so simple and yet so missed of changing that us and them to instead of we them it's us together it's we together it's not you versus me it's not and really using...
Daryl Davis
I versus you.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Exactly that language. I want to take a step back because you getting into race reconciliation, as you know. Look, lots of people travel around the world. Not everybody has an illustrious career like you, and right, people meet a lot of people. The idea of turning your experiences into race reconciliation. I'd love you to take a step back and sort of say, what was a moment, either in a conversation and interaction, where you were like, "Oh, I'm good at this. I got this. This is my calling. This is how I should be negotiating. How I should be in the middle of the world.”
Daryl Davis
I mean, there are tons of examples. I'll give you two. I never set out in this endeavor to change anybody's mind. I had an experience briefly when I was age 10. We had just come home from an overseas assignment, and I joined the Cub Scouts in 1968, and I was in a parade here in our country, and I was the only black participant. There were the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Brownies, 4-H Club, different organizations. People were smiling, waving, having a good time until we reached a certain point in the parade route when suddenly I was getting hit with soda pop bottles and cans and rocks by just a few spectators in the crowd. I didn't understand it. I had never experienced that before. I've been around people from all over the world, and it didn't dawn on me it was the color of my skin. I thought the people doing this, how naive I was, I thought the people throwing things didn't like the scouts. I didn't realize I was the only scout getting hit until my scout leaders came running and covered me with their own bodies and quickly escorted me out of the danger. I saw no other scout was getting the special protection. Now I'm thinking I had done something to cause their ire. I'm asking, you know, what? Why they doing this? I didn't do anything, and they wouldn't tell me what was happening. All they kept saying was, "Move along, move along, move along. Everything will be okay.”
They never answered the question. So when I got home, my parents told me what it was, and I literally did not believe my parents. I'd never heard the word racism at the age of 10. It did not exist in my world. I was around everybody, and nobody treated each other like that. And so, for the first time in my life, I did not believe my parents, but I quickly found out they were right, and that is what set me on this trajectory. I formed a question at that age, which was, "How can you hate me when you don't even know me? And I've been looking for the answer ever since. So, who better to ask that question of than someone who would go so far as to join an organization that has over 100-year history of practicing hating people.
People practice law, they practice medicine, but they don't practice hate. Come on, you know. So, I ran into the Ku Klux Klan, and I said, you know, well, rather than get furious, I got curious. Well, who better to ask that question of? They can answer it for me because nobody else did. They can tell me why they hate me, why they would join that organization. So that's what put me on that trajectory.
Professor Andrea Schneider
What would make you decide, like, I got a free Sunday. Let me go hit a Klan rally
Daryl Davis
For the same thing I told you about the bandstand. I want harmony on my bandstand, and when I'm off the bandstand, I'm out amongst the public. I want harmony out there too. I want harmony around me. I don't want people looking at me and calling me names and wanting to fight me in the street just because I might have voted for this person, or I'm that color, or I'm that religion, or I have a gay friend, or you know, a Jewish friend, whatever it is they don't like, I want harmony. And I'm not anti-racist. I'm pro-human. Now, what do I mean by that? If we use anti-racist as a noun, the racist, the person. I'm not against the person. I'm against the ism. I'm anti-racism because that person wasn't born a racist. That was acquired behavior. It was learned behavior, and I'm a firm believer, because I have proven it, that what can be learned can be unlearned, and so that's what I try to do by either exposure to these people or vicariously educating them, and it seems to work through these negotiation tactics. For example, one guy was riding in my car. He was a Klan leader of a lower level, and he was working his way up. And we got on the topic of crime, and he made the comment which I'd heard before from other people, and I've heard many times since in the Klan. He used the authority, the biggest authority in the world, that nobody sees. That authority's name is “they.” They say, right? You know. And he said, “well, you know, they say all black people are born with a gene that makes them violent.” I'm driving, and he's sitting over here in the passenger seat. And I said, you know, “what are you talking about?” He said, "Well, who's doing all the drive-bys and car jackings in Southeast? He was referring to Southeast Washington D.C., which is predominantly black. There are some whites who live there. It is very high crime-ridden. I said, "Okay, it's black people. But I said, "You're not considering the demographics. That's what lives there.” I said, "Who's doing all the crime up in Bangor, Maine? White people, because that's what lives there.” He says, "Oh no, no, that has nothing to say. You're born with that gene.” I said, "Look, man, I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a carjacking or drive-by. How do you explain that?” You know what? He didn't even hesitate to think about it. He answered me like that. He said, "Your gene is late then. It hasn't come out yet.” Wow, I was speechless. You know how do you even begin to negotiate that? It's so far out you can't even grab onto.
Exactly, I can put on the brakes in my car and mentally too.
Professor Andrea Schneider
I mean, and I love that he's saying this. While you were driving the car. You're like, wow.
Daryl Davis
Yeah, exactly. And so, I was speechless. He's over here, all smug, looking at me like, "You got nothing to say.” He had made his point. He won. I realized that no amount of evidence, books written by PhDs from the floor to the ceiling, would convince him otherwise. I could not go the scientific logical route. I had to go where he was mentally. So this is how I negotiated. I said, "Well, I tell you what. Name me three.”
I will say this: my gene almost came out.
I said to him, "I said, name me three black serial killers.” He couldn't do it. I said, "Name me just one.” He couldn't do it. I said, "Here, I'm going to give you one. I named one for him. I said, "Just give me two.” He couldn't do it. I said, "Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, on and on and on.
I said, "Son,” I'm driving. I said, "Son, you are a serial killer.”
He said, "Darrell, I've never killed anybody.”
I said, "Your genesis late then hasn't come out yet. They say all white people are born with the genes that makes them a serial killer.” He goes, "Well, that's stupid. I said, "Well, duh. I said, but you know what? You're right. It is stupid, but it's no more stupid for me to say that about you than what you said about me.”
And he got very quiet. I could tell his wheels were spinning, and then he changed the subject. But within four to five months, he quit the Ku Klux Klan based on that conversation and his robe and hood were the first robe and hood I ever got. Now, how crazy is that? Now, that's a crazy negotiation.
Professor Andrea Schneider
I mean, there's so much to unpack of recognizing, to put this in negotiation terms, sometimes we think that if only I were a little bit more persuasive, a little louder, had more facts, I would be able to persuade somebody. And you immediately realize that no scientific study—you're not calling him dumb, you're not trying to prove him wrong. You present another story. It's a yes and okay. Those genes might be latent. And my experience is that lots and lots of serial killers are white, so I guess I should conclude the same thing because your logic of there's lots of crime in Southeast, so therefore there's a gene. Okay, I'll use literally the same reasoning as you. You validated his reasoning while giving him different facts and that cognitive dissonance, like this, is what I wanted to come back to: the use of dissonance.
Dissonance has got to be purposeful, and yet that is the way that you've changed minds. You let that dissonance sort of percolate from people, so Daryl, if you were a young person listening to this, admiring your work, and really wanting to get into this, I mean, maybe you would advise, oh, just walk up to the Klan, maybe. I'm going to go with no. So, what are the skills you wish you knew when you were younger that somebody could hopefully build that skill now, as they're thinking about. We talked about at the top of the podcast about how divided the country is, how polarized opinions are. Someone wanted to engage. What are the skills that they should be building?
Daryl Davis
Building their credibility, no matter who you're dealing with, if they're on the other side, you are the adversary. You are the enemy. However, if they see that you know a lot about them and what they believe in, their ideology, point of view or whatever, whether they like you or not, and they don't like you, they will respect you. They will respect you for doing your homework, and that draws them a little closer. If you start telling them about their organization, the history of it, so they're like, "Whoa, this guy knows his stuff.” And I've even had Klansmen call me to ask me questions about the Klan because they had to take a test to rise up in their rank, and they didn't study. And I knew the answers.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Please tell me that you are the Klan study buddy.
Daryl Davis
Yes, I have. Yes, indeed, I have.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Oh my God! All right, I think I think we're gonna have that. Might be a tagline too. Oh my, this is this is incredible.
Daryl Davis
People respect knowledge, especially when it concerns themselves. Who would know somebody better than themselves? But yet, when that person has a problem, where do they go? They go to a psychologist that they don't even know to figure out what the heck is going on with them. So I can be that person.
Professor Andrea Schneider
You can help.
Daryl Davis
Exactly. So let me tell you about my bus. You'll get a kick out of this. Well, probably one of the wildest and most bizarre to some people. It wasn't bizarre to me. This Klan leader, highest up, he called me one day, and you know I've been interviewing for my book, and you know we were on have a good friendship. I don't agree with his ideology, but I could see him changing the more we would meet, and I applied those five core values. So one day he called me. I live like you know two counties away.
He asked me if there were any places down in my county that rented buses, and I thought, well, I have a bus. I did at the time for my touring with my band. I said, "Well, I'm sure there probably are, but I don't use them because I already have a bus. What's going on?” And he said that the bus company up in his county would no longer rent him buses because you know he would take him, you know, take his clan around, and people would throw rocks and break the windows and dent the bus and all that. So he figured if he rented the bus from somewhere else, you know, they didn't know him, that he would be safe, and I said, "Well, okay, that makes sense.” I said, "You know, I really don't know any places.” But then I thought, you know what? I don't support racist ideology. I don't support the KKK, but he has a right to freedom of assembly. He has a right to freedom of speech. I'm going to show him something. I'm going to stand up for his rights, even though I don't believe in what he is preaching. I said, "Well, look, I tell you what. What day is this march that you're going to have?” And told me, looked at my calendar. I was off. I said, "Tell you what. Why don't you just take my bus? Nobody knows my bus. You can have my bus and put all your guys in there and go to your march, whatever.” And he thought I was joking. He goes, "Come on, man, I'm being serious. You know, I said, "I'm being serious too.” He goes, "You are?” I said, "Yeah. He goes, "I'll rent it from y'all. I'll pay you the money. What do you want for?” I said, "I don't want anything for it. Take my bus, take good care of it. You put gas in it, and I'm happy.” Are you sure? I said, "Yeah.” So, one of his other people came down to my house, and got the bus, and I went to the march.
The cops were like totally freaked out because they didn't know what the Klan was coming in, but they had dotted the march route with police officers and their radios and all that kind of stuff, in case any trouble were to happen, because it's out in the open, right? And so cars were driving by, people driving by, and the cops are like looking, looking, and then here comes my bus. I said, "That's the Klan there. They're like, "Well, how do you know?” I said, "Trust me, it is.” So they weren't quite sure. And then when the bus went and circled and came back. They knew it was, and they're like, "Well, how do you know?” And I wouldn't tell them. And so they all got out of the bus and started putting on their Klan robes and starting their march. And then when the march was over, there were about 15 of them in that bus. Some came in their cars. The guy said, "He'll bring the bus back and drop it off because he left his truck here, and I said, "Bring everybody over if you want.” He brought over 15 Klansmen. They were sitting right here in my living room. I bought beer for them. I don't drink. I bought beer for them. All of them but two would drink and have cheese and crackers that I had laid out. The other two would not touch anything. They were like freaked out to be in a Black person's house, totally freaked out. They just sat there.
They eventually quit, and they began sending anonymous hate mail to the leader, accusing him of being in bed with me and selling out and being an n-word lover and so forth and so on. Right, and they went on their way. The others, we all got along, sat around, told jokes, and talked about this, that, and the other, whatever. I was letting them get to know me on a social basis, and slowly they began dropping out.
This was one of the straws that caused a cognitive dissonance. Eventually, this Klan leader, who I lent the bus to, he quit the Klan. He renounced it. All right, and he shut down his 13 chapters in 13 states.
Now I'll tell you a funny story about that to show you how much respect he had for me, one of his guys down in Tennessee found an old school bus that was for sale, and the Klansman was a mechanic, so he would bring it up to spec or whatever. So they talked about it, they voted on it, and they purchased the bus, and they brought it back up here. So every Klan group has a newsletter they put out for their locals, and in his newsletter he was like running a contest to see who could come up with the best name for the bus. But it could not be anything that identifies the bus as being Klan because it would it would be attacked. So it had to be kind of subtle, but people in the know would be in the know, and others. Oh, it's just you know whatever. So he put that in his newsletter for people to submit names, and whoever won would get whatever. So he called me and asked me if I had any suggestions for a name. I know it's freaking you out, right?
Professor Andrea Schneider
I'm like, what?
Daryl Davis
So I thought about it, and you know the Klan claims to be a fraternity, like a Greek fraternity. So I thought, okay, well, I said, how about just call it Tri Kappa? And anybody seeing the name on the bus just, oh, it's you know one of those fraternities. Tri meaning three, Kappa meaning k3, Ks, right? So well, he didn't get that because he didn't go to college. He's not a frat member. I don't understand that, Daryl. That doesn't make any sense. Well, the Klan claims to be a fraternity, so I tried to explain the Greek fraternity thing. And the word Ku Klux Klan comes from the Irish and Greek word. Okay, Greek word κύκλος, meaning circle, and Klan Irish Scottish mean close family, close knit friends. Clan like C L A N. So they changed the C to a K. So you have Ku Klux Klan, and it means circle of friends. That's what Ku Klux Klan means. So anyway, well he didn't get it. He called me back about I don't know two weeks later and said you know they'd come up with a name and he told me, and he was gonna call it Special K. I said, "Whoa, you can't do that. That's already trademarked, man. That belongs to Kellogg's.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Yeah, they're not gonna be happy.
Daryl Davis
About a month later, he got a cease and desist letter from Battle Creek, Michigan.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Oh yeah, no, no, no. General Mills will have none of that.
Daryl Davis
Exactly. So they had to change their name. The whole thing is, he ended up quitting the Klan because he saw me as being an honest, decent person who did not believe in what he stood for, showed him a better way, took him under my wing, and he had never even seen that within his own color. So your credibility is the most important thing to keep in mind when you are negotiating with anybody about anything, because first of all, you're on the other side, so therefore they don't trust you. If you do anything that is going to reinforce their distrust of you, you've lost the negotiation already. So you got to be credible. That is your highest price asset, and you must protect it, and you must exhibit your credibility. Because if you're credible, even if they don't like you, they will come back to you.
Professor Andrea Schneider
This was so incredible, such a wonderful opportunity, a lot of fun to talk with you, of course, but just eye opening. And I know I'm focusing on the use of language instead of I versus you. It's a we, it's us, and just changing that. The use of dissonance versus harmony, which stems so logically from your incredible skills as a musician, and really thinking about when do we want harmony, and how the use of dissonance can actually change people's minds over time, and really the patience that you have for that is just incredible.
Daryl Davis
Think about it, Andrea. When you're watching a movie, there's the underscore music, and if there's suspense, the chords change. They get ooh, you know, and you begin to feel it because the director wants the audience to feel fear, suspense, sad, you know, happy, and the tone of the chords, the instruments that are being played, that is controlled dissonance because it's making your emotion shift in your body. You want controlled dissonance.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Controlled dissonance. That's such a great way to think about it. So thank you so much for being with us today. We are really, really grateful.
Daryl Davis
Thank you for having me. It's been my pleasure, and I hope people-if you want more information on it-you know-take take a look at my book, The Klam Whisperer my brand-new book.
Professor Andrea Schneider
Absolutely, we will be tagging that, recommending it, and sending it out. It's just a-it's a terrific book, and talking with you is just wonderful. Thank you so much, Daryl. We're grateful.
Daryl Davis
My pleasure.
Professor Andrea Schneider
I'm Andrea Schneider, and you've been listening to How My Friends Negotiate. Negotiation advice from trusted friends. You can find us and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.